Ventilation control - 3 pos switch - VMB4RYLD

Hi All,

New small project, our ventilation system is controlled through an RF transmitter/receiver. I want to integrate the ventilation in the Velbus installation, did some research and unfortunately it can’t be controlled with an 0-10V controller. It has to go through a 3 position switch, which isn’t a big deal because i have an VMB4RYLD in ‘spare’.

Started playing with this and i have the following outcome, overview in a nutshell:

Ventilation Position 1 = 2 and 3 off (forced 2sec)
Ventilation Position 2 = 1 and 3 off (forced 2sec)
Ventilation Position 3 = 1 and 2 off (forced 2sec)
Ventilation Timer 20m= Pos 3 on (forced 20min)

I’ve programmed this on virtual channels of the VMBGP2B, seems this is working (see screenshots below).

Now the next step is to automate this, have the following example in mind:
Ventilation Position 1 = always on
Ventilation Position 2 = every day between 12.00pm an 15.00pm
Ventilation Position 3 = switched on when light in bathroom is on for 5 minutes (and if it is in the time span between 07.00am and 10.00pm)
Ventilation Position 3 = manually swichted on by long press light switch (this i can program :-))

and here I’m stuck, don’t see where to begin… i will thank you in advance for the brainstorming session on this, any idea is welcome.

Greetings,
Bart

http://s24.postimg.org/esgn9k9bp/2015_07_21_23h10_11.png

http://s24.postimg.org/llh05u051/2015_07_21_23h10_18.png

http://s24.postimg.org/e47sqmalx/2015_07_21_23h10_22.png

http://s24.postimg.org/mp5pvja5x/2015_07_21_23h10_26.png

I don’t quite understand why you use a start/stop timer and forced actions to set your relays. Can you explain how the ventilator relays work and what effect they have on the ventilator itself (independently of Velbus)? I’d like to understand this first before getting into the rest of the story…

Hi, I want to avoid more then one position is triggered at the same time… no idea how the control will react when this happens.

I’ll post the shematic this evening.

Greetings,
Bart

Ummmmm

Interesting.

Similar to Vel345, I need to know exactly what the existing switch does before I can throw my hat in the ring.

Does the switch ‘just’ power up different control lines, which the fan’s electronics respond to, or does it directly power up different windings within the motor.

(I’ve had the latter recently with a client)

If it’s the latter, you need to be absolutely certain that only one circuit is active at any one point in time.

To the extent that I’d be tempted to build a bespoke relay assembly where only one output can be live at any one time, in a cascading style.

It’s quite a simple circuit to create, its a shame the VMB4RYNO doesn’t give change over outputs, which would make this super easy.

After that the programming becomes much easier.

Good luck

Don’t think it is cascade… just different connection of the fase ‘regulates’.

http://s11.postimg.org/oo5trac9f/2015_07_22_19h38_37.png

That makes life easier :slight_smile:

It looks to me like a 2 way, 3 position switching system.

I’ll have to assume the following is true :-

Position 1 = All off

Position 2 = low / slow state

Position 3 = High / fast state

If that is the case… Can I suggest the following.

2 relay channels are required.

Relay 1 to isolate the power to the switch / output contacts of a changeover relay connected to relay 2

Relay 2 to operate al single pole change over relay.

Programming would become quite easy, and importantly quite safe.

Think of it as a demand for ventilation, and a boost option / demand.

Operating relay number 1 would switch the fan on.

Operating relay 2 would increase the speed.

How you program that with momentary / switched / timed commands is completely up to you.

Does that help?

It’s an always on system :slight_smile:
(the general power socket of this device can switched by velbus, but the aim is to do the regulation instead of cutting the power :-))

Position 1 = low
Position 2 = medium
Position 3 = high

coming from the manual: Step one is used at night, step two during the
day when there are people at home and step three when
cooking, showering or bathing.

So the reason why i use the forced off is to avoid that two positions get powered at the same moment.

I see :wink:

In that case you do need a cascading system.

Safest way is with a small array of change over relays.

I’ll find the drawing I did for a client…

Hi Stuart,

Many thanks for your input.
The best is that i check in the unit itself, it’s still putting me in doubt if contact 1 stays powered when switching to 2. If so = cascade with contact 1 and 2 OR contact 1 and 3 for medium and high step… according to another diagram it is not.
http://s13.postimg.org/mr577hn93/2015_07_22_23h06_51.png

found this, which could be the cascade:
http://www.klusidee.nl/Forum/userpix/22739_ventilator_2.jpg

Greetings!
Bart

Interesting.

Maybe look at the drawings the other way around.

Your second picture gives only 2 speed options, whilst the first gives 3.

But in both, L1 is live at all times.

So the options are

L1 = Slow

L1 & L2 = Medium

L1 & L3 = Full speed

Does this make life a little easier?

I agree with MDAR’s analysis:
L1 = slow
L1 + L2 = medium
L1 + L3 = high

This means we can see L1 as a kind of on/off (or slow/off). If we additionally connect L2 OR L3, we change the speed accordingly to resp. medium or high.

I would suggest using a VMB2BLE shutter module as a changeover relay (or, I you have some patience, the VMB1BLS, available soon). The VMB2BLE relays are hardware designed to only allow the “up” or “down” to be active at a given moment. Because this is hardware built-in, it’s very secure. By putting the “total timeout” value to “continuous”, it will act as a changeover relay.

The general setup would then be:

  • connect L1 through a VMB4RYxx relay (which would be on under normal operation, but when needed will allow you to power down the ventilation, like an alarm stop)
  • connect L2 and L3 to the “up” resp. “down” of a VMB2BLE shutter module. So “up” will then correspond to your medium speed, and “down” to your high speed.

Now the buttons to control the ventilation… This is a bit “out of the box” thinking, so what I’m going to explain may seem a bit complicated or strange, but it seems to work perfectly in my test setup. We will also need a virtual relay.
In Velbuslink, make the following actions:
(if the image doesn’t show, try again in an hour or so while it syncs on our network)

  • button “slow” → blind channel: inhibit (action nr.65)
  • button “medium” → virtual relay: restartable timer 1s (15)
  • button “high” → virtual relay: restartable timer 1s (15)
  • virtual relay → blind channel: cancel inhibit (67)
  • button “medium” → blind channel: “direct up” (2)
  • button “medium” → blind channel: “direct down” (5)
    Pressing the “slow” button inhibits the medium/high relays and thus makes the ventilation fall back to slow speed. Pressing the “medium” or “high” button cancels this inhibition (through an intermediary virtual relay) and switches the medium resp. high speed on. Pressing “slow” again, falls back to slow speed by inhibiting again the two higher speeds.

Note that the L1 connection does not come into play here, and is expected to be always on. The three buttons above only interact with the L2/L3 connections.

The intermediary virtual relay in my setup is necessary (or at least higly recommended) because it is not good practice to define two different actions between the same initiator/subject couple, as this can give unforeseen results.

Now if you want to combine the three buttons in one single button (which toggles speeds slow-medium-high-slow-etc by consecutively pressing it), you can use the “multi” mode, available on most input modules (except VMBGPOD).

Lastly, programming will then consist of simply activating the “slow”, “medium” and “high” buttons as needed.

Does this make any sense to you? I think it should work, but it’s more difficult to explain than to do. In case I would have missed something, please complete/comment.

That’s a good solution Vel345 :wink:

I’ve just thought about it, and it could all be done safely with 2 channels of a VMB4RYNO and a VMB1RYNO

Mainly because the VNB1RYNO has a change over output.

Channel 1 of the VMB4RYNO would power the fan (L1) , and also feed the common pole of the VNB1RYNO.

The relaxed / N.C. output of the VNB1RYNO would then feed the voltage input of channel 2 of the VMB4RYNO.

The energized / N.O. output of the VNB1RYNO would power L3

The output of VMB4RYNO / Channel 2 would power L2

(I’ll draw this all up when I get home later)

The following logic would operate the fan.

VMB4RYNO / Channel 1 (Only) = Fan on & Slow

(Switching off this channel would switch the fan off completely, regardless of the state of the other two relays)

VMB4RYNO / Channel 1 & VMB4RYNO / Channel 2 = Fan on & Medium

VMB4RYNO / Channel 1 & VNB1RYNO = Fan on & fast

(It wouldn’t matter what VMB4RYNO/Channel 2 was doing at this stage, as it would be electrically isolated by the VNB1RYNO)

Personally speaking, by this time I would probably just have opened a window, or two if I needed a strong draft :slight_smile:

You are right, MDAR, my solution with a VMB2BLE could also work by changing the VMB2BLE for a VMB1RYNO. It seems to me one could use the same action setup in Velbuslink (replacing “up” with “on” and “down” with “off”), or another setup, as you seem to suggest. As usual in Velbus, many ways lead to Rome. It all depends also on how the ventilation system actually works, it seems to me the schematics are somewhat contradictory but the general solution remains the same.

(For the record: A VMB1BL wouldn’t work because time can’t be set to continuous in this module.)

The really important element seems to me to use a **hardware changeover **relay so L2 and L3 cann in no way be activated at the same time, and for this in Velbus a blind module or a VMB1RYNO are equivalent possibilities. When using “software” changeover (with forcing etc) there always remains a risk of malfunctioning eg. after a power failure or other unforeseen events/disturbances.

I couldn’t agree more.

Some days it’s like we share the same brain cell :slight_smile:

Also, for the record: VMBHIS Home Center with Global Caché can now integrate IR controlled appliances. Which would be a completely other approach: make Home Center/GlobalCaché “emulate” your IR control and command the ventilation that way. Just to be complete :slight_smile:

Here’s a very simple general solution, should appear in the FAQ section soon. Here a very brief summary:
(if the images don’t load, try again later, may be due to file syncing)
Taking as the ventilator principle this:

one could configure this in Velbus like this:

with the following actions (concerning S2 and S3):

(Aan = on, uit = off, knop = button, relais = relay channel)

Have a VMB1BLS to play with and a spare VMB4GP… and try to configure it as mentioned:

In Velbuslink, make the following actions:

  • button “slow” → blind channel: inhibit (action nr.65)
  • button “medium” → virtual relay: restartable timer 1s (15)
  • button “high” → virtual relay: restartable timer 1s (15)
  • virtual relay → blind channel: cancel inhibit (67)
  • button “medium” → blind channel: “direct up” (2)
  • button “medium” → blind channel: “direct down” (5)
    Pressing the “slow” button inhibits the medium/high relays and thus makes the ventilation fall back to slow speed. Pressing the “medium” or “high” button cancels this inhibition (through an intermediary virtual relay) and switches the medium resp. high speed on. Pressing “slow” again, falls back to slow speed by inhibiting again the two higher speeds.

Pressing the slow button = Blind UP
Pressing the medium button = Blind DOWN (5sec blinking due my config)
VMB1BLS DOWN led stays activated and feedback led in Ch2 VMB4GP
Pressing the high button = click sound LED ch3 goes on, blinks with Led ch2 and nothing else happens, VMB1BLS stays activ on DOWN.
Pressing slow button again = feedback led ch1 and ch2 ON, VMB1BLS stays activ on DOWN.

What am i missing?
http://s11.postimg.org/5u2m739cz/vent_ctrl_v1_0.jpg

Could you describe, in brief, the expected behavior versus the observed behavior please?

I agree with Vel345, we need more info :slight_smile:

My only thought / observation so far is that

Inhibit is not the same as Force On / Off, or Switch On / Off.

Inhibit will inhibit change.

While force On / Off will force the channel.

Pressing the slow button = Blind UP
Pressing the medium button = Blind DOWN (5sec blinking due my config)
VMB1BLS DOWN led stays activated and feedback led in Ch2 VMB4GP
Pressing the high button = click sound LED ch3 goes on, blinks with Led ch2 and nothing else happens, VMB1BLS stays activ on DOWN.
Pressing slow button again = feedback led ch1 and ch2 ON, VMB1BLS stays activ on DOWN.